Lagondaforum » For Sale » Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

oakley	Jan 07, 2010 7:26 pm
Subject: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile At the most prestigeous classic car auction in the world, Bonhams Retromobile in Paris, which will be held on 23 January and which features a number of the most dazzling cars ever made (Bugattis, Alfa Romeos, Hispano Suizas, Bentleys etc.) there are also two Lagondas on offer; one is a magnificent 1936 LG45 drophead coupe (sensibly estimated at 140.000 - 180.000 Euros), the second, lot nr. 229, is described in the catalogue as a "1937 LG45 Rapide Tourer" which it is not. I find it quite surprising that Bonhams has advertised this car as such when in fact it was originally a 1937 pillarless Saloon which at some point received an (incorrect) 1935 replica F&N team car body . The estimate is the same as for the Coupe.

oakley

Jan 07, 2010 7:26 pm

Subject: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

At the most prestigeous classic car auction in the world, Bonhams Retromobile in Paris, which will be held on 23 January and which features a number of the most dazzling cars ever made (Bugattis, Alfa Romeos, Hispano Suizas, Bentleys etc.) there are also two Lagondas on offer; one is a magnificent 1936 LG45 drophead coupe (sensibly estimated at 140.000 - 180.000 Euros), the second, lot nr. 229, is described in the catalogue as a "1937 LG45 Rapide Tourer" which it is not. I find it quite surprising that Bonhams has advertised this car as such when in fact it was originally a 1937 pillarless Saloon which at some point received an (incorrect) 1935 replica F&N team car body . The estimate is the same as for the Coupe.

Peter S30	Jan 08, 2010 7:50 pm
Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile I saw that too. A list of correct chassis numbers for LG45 Rapides can e.g. be found in the Holthusen book. And a standard factory body LG45 Rapide looks a bit different.. But there is really an amazing list of nice cars to be auctioned and I will go there for a weekend (unfortunately I don´t have the money to buy one of those). Anybody else from this forum going there? send me a mail, would be nice to meet.

Peter S30

Jan 08, 2010 7:50 pm

Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

I saw that too. A list of correct chassis numbers for LG45 Rapides can e.g. be found in the Holthusen book. And a standard factory body LG45 Rapide looks a bit different..

But there is really an amazing list of nice cars to be auctioned and I will go there for a weekend (unfortunately I don´t have the money to buy one of those). Anybody else from this forum going there? send me a mail, would be nice to meet.

oakley	Jan 08, 2010 8:30 pm
Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile Actually the chassis nr. is quite allright, but if you look at the identification plate on the Bonhams website you will see that it says "Type LG45 SB3" which means that it was a saloon bodied car. (Not to be confused with the "S3" on the engine which means, quite correctly, that it is a sanction 3 engine). The 1937 Rapide is not "a bit different" but totally different (and worth a fortune). Again, this is a (not very good) replica 1935 M45 team car body, incorrect for the car which is therefore highly unoriginal and I am surprised that Bonhams prints this falsehood without blinking an eye... P.S. I cannot afford Holthusen's book - but this case is clear even without consulting it.

oakley

Jan 08, 2010 8:30 pm

Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

Actually the chassis nr. is quite allright, but if you look at the identification plate on the Bonhams website you will see that it says "Type LG45 SB3" which means that it was a saloon bodied car. (Not to be confused with the "S3" on the engine which means, quite correctly, that it is a sanction 3 engine).
The 1937 Rapide is not "a bit different" but totally different (and worth a fortune). Again, this is a (not very good) replica 1935 M45 team car body, incorrect for the car which is therefore highly unoriginal and I am surprised that Bonhams prints this falsehood without blinking an eye...
P.S. I cannot afford Holthusen's book - but this case is clear even without consulting it.

DavidLG45	Jan 09, 2010 3:11 pm
Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile 3 of the interior photos of the drophead are of a completely different car. There is another LG45 drophead for sale at Godin Banks http://www.godinbanks.com

DavidLG45

Jan 09, 2010 3:11 pm

Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

3 of the interior photos of the drophead are of a completely different car.
There is another LG45 drophead for sale at Godin Banks http://www.godinbanks.com

Peter S30	Jan 09, 2010 9:56 pm
Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile Interesting discussion. a "bit" different was meant ironically.. The Holthusen book (I bought it at ebay a few years ago - was not really expensive for this amazing book, about 150 EUR) lists the following numbers fo the 25 LG45 rapides originally built: 12140R-12144R, 12169R-12173R, 12201R-12205R, 12230R, 12234R, 12235R, 12244R, 12245R, 12247R, 12248R, 12266R, 12267R, 12277R. Some engine Numbers and the original registration numbers and dates are given too. the three wrong dashboard images seem to be from the Bugatti type 57C with interesting pillarles 4-door body of the same auction

Peter S30

Jan 09, 2010 9:56 pm

Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

Interesting discussion.

a "bit" different was meant ironically..

The Holthusen book (I bought it at ebay a few years ago - was not really expensive for this amazing book, about 150 EUR) lists the following numbers fo the 25 LG45 rapides originally built: 12140R-12144R, 12169R-12173R, 12201R-12205R, 12230R, 12234R, 12235R, 12244R, 12245R, 12247R, 12248R, 12266R, 12267R, 12277R. Some engine Numbers and the original registration numbers and dates are given too.

the three wrong dashboard images seem to be from the Bugatti type 57C with interesting pillarles 4-door body of the same auction

oakley	Jan 09, 2010 10:45 pm
Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile Because of the unfortunate tendency to demolish saloon cars and turn them into non-original Le Mans and Team cars, the saloons are now rarer than these replicas. This particular car does not only have a rather poorly replicated body (just look at the side cut-outs) but it is also from the wrong period and the wrong type Lagonda. The 1935 M45 Team cars had this round rear end with the fin, while a 1937 LG45 Team car would have had a long pointed tail. Another giveaway is the fact that the gear lever is in the middle, while an original team car would have had it on the right.

oakley

Jan 09, 2010 10:45 pm

Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

Because of the unfortunate tendency to demolish saloon cars and turn them into non-original Le Mans and Team cars, the saloons are now rarer than these replicas.
This particular car does not only have a rather poorly replicated body (just look at the side cut-outs) but it is also from the wrong period and the wrong type Lagonda. The 1935 M45 Team cars had this round rear end with the fin, while a 1937 LG45 Team car would have had a long pointed tail. Another giveaway is the fact that the gear lever is in the middle, while an original team car would have had it on the right.

oakley	Jan 13, 2010 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile Bonhams have rectified the incorrect description of this car. That is to say, they made a faint attempt and could not have done it more inconspicuously. The entry for this car on their website is still as "1937 Rapide Tourer" and the completely incorrect description remains unaltered. All they have done is add a very brief note at the bottom which reads: "Lot Notice: This Lot was originally built in 1937 as a standard Lagonda LG45 with Pillarless Saloon coachwork. At some later stage it was adapted to resemble an M45 Fox & Nicholl Le Mans Team Car". I find it quite amazing that a reputable auction house like Bonhams, at one of the most prestigeous classic car auctions in the world, tries to hide the fact that this is a completely wrongly described car.

oakley

Jan 13, 2010 2:48 pm

Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

Bonhams have rectified the incorrect description of this car. That is to say, they made a faint attempt and could not have done it more inconspicuously. The entry for this car on their website is still as "1937 Rapide Tourer" and the completely incorrect description remains unaltered. All they have done is add a very brief note at the bottom which reads: "Lot Notice: This Lot was originally built in 1937 as a standard Lagonda LG45 with Pillarless Saloon coachwork. At some later stage it was adapted to resemble an M45 Fox & Nicholl Le Mans Team Car".
I find it quite amazing that a reputable auction house like Bonhams, at one of the most prestigeous classic car auctions in the world, tries to hide the fact that this is a completely wrongly described car.

DavidLG45	Jan 13, 2010 3:06 pm
Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile Horrible website too. . . .

DavidLG45

Jan 13, 2010 3:06 pm

Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

Horrible website too. . . .

M70	Jan 14, 2010 8:42 pm
Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile I do agree with David's views on Bonhams description, they should be better informed and more knowledgeable. As a "steward" of a unique LG45 Saloon and and a 1936 LG45 four-seater Team Car replica - as near as I can to the 1936 model - I think that "demolishing a saloon to create a replica" can be a more complex issue than many make out. Certainly maintaing a saloon is much more demanding than a Replica - I can only say the Jackall system and variable damping suspension has been a real labour of love for me. Then I have to say my Replica is more fun to drive and she now is on the race circuit and upholds the Lagonda racing pedigree. Bernd Holthusen has given us a significant reference work, which put the 4.5 Litre cars on the map, which means that all of us can know the difference between a 1935 and 1936 Le Mans car and even better we can all tell the difference between a poorly executed replica (whatever the motivation may have been) and a good one. The Club is broad kirk, most of us dislike the "conveyor belt" of poorly executed replica's which required a donor saloon to be sacrificed, in some cases a car which was perfectly serviceable, however we are better educated now and appreciate the quality of these previously underrated saloons and, I hope, the importance of the marque continuing to race. Therefore what should we say to the new owner of this Bonhams mongrel? I would suggest an warm welcome. As I say, a rather more complex issue. Stephen

M70

Jan 14, 2010 8:42 pm

Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

I do agree with David's views on Bonhams description, they should be better informed and more knowledgeable. As a "steward" of a unique LG45 Saloon and and a 1936 LG45 four-seater Team Car replica - as near as I can to the 1936 model - I think that "demolishing a saloon to create a replica" can be a more complex issue than many make out. Certainly maintaing a saloon is much more demanding than a Replica - I can only say the Jackall system and variable damping suspension has been a real labour of love for me. Then I have to say my Replica is more fun to drive and she now is on the race circuit and upholds the Lagonda racing pedigree. Bernd Holthusen has given us a significant reference work, which put the 4.5 Litre cars on the map, which means that all of us can know the difference between a 1935 and 1936 Le Mans car and even better we can all tell the difference between a poorly executed replica (whatever the motivation may have been) and a good one. The Club is broad kirk, most of us dislike the "conveyor belt" of poorly executed replica's which required a donor saloon to be sacrificed, in some cases a car which was perfectly serviceable, however we are better educated now and appreciate the quality of these previously underrated saloons and, I hope, the importance of the marque continuing to race. Therefore what should we say to the new owner of this Bonhams mongrel? I would suggest an warm welcome. As I say, a rather more complex issue. Stephen

DavidLG45	Jan 15, 2010 10:49 am
Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile Clearly Bonhams or anyone else for that matter must describe a car for sale as a replica if that is what it is. As to whether it is acceptable to turn saloons into replicas I feel depends on the circumstances. There was a lovely Derby Bentley Park Ward saloon body for sale on ebay before Christmas. It had been restored and then removed from the car. I was told the complete restored car had been auctioned a while before for around £40,000. That is just plain wrong in my opinion. It is a different matter if the car has already lost its body, for whatever reason, in the past. You can't wind back the clock. Where I think it is a shame is when the body is still mainly there but in bad condition. Personally I'd restore it to the original saloon but I can just about uderstand someone throwing the wrecked body away especially if you can sell the replica for more than the restored saloon.

DavidLG45

Jan 15, 2010 10:49 am

Subject: Re: Wrong description of an LG45 at Retromobile

Clearly Bonhams or anyone else for that matter must describe a car for sale as a replica if that is what it is. As to whether it is acceptable to turn saloons into replicas I feel depends on the circumstances. There was a lovely Derby Bentley Park Ward saloon body for sale on ebay before Christmas. It had been restored and then removed from the car. I was told the complete restored car had been auctioned a while before for around £40,000. That is just plain wrong in my opinion. It is a different matter if the car has already lost its body, for whatever reason, in the past. You can't wind back the clock. Where I think it is a shame is when the body is still mainly there but in bad condition. Personally I'd restore it to the original saloon but I can just about uderstand someone throwing the wrecked body away especially if you can sell the replica for more than the restored saloon.