Lagondaforum » Other » Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Rich5ltr	Jul 10, 2015 11:42 am
Subject: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer? Firstly hello everyone, I have recently joined this forum as I am looking to enter the world of Lagonda ownership. I have an 1958 Aston Martin DB2/4 which, as you all know, uses a WOBentley/Lagonda engine and I have always wanted to own a pre-war car since driving the AMOC's 1934 Ulster (centre accelerator / mirrored gearbox layout). Like everyone new to a particular marque it's always a difficult knowing where to start but the 16/80 looks attractive to me and the one for sale at German vendor Movendi looks interesting. It's UK registration was/is CPC 748 - chassis number S11334 engine 3082. I have also discovered from Google that... "In the 60s the open tourer replaced the original saloon body and in 1993 the original engine 1991 cc was replaced by a larger and more powerful 2389 cc engine of the 16/65" The dealer doesn't say much about the car in his listing but more pictures and details are here http://www.mo-vendi.de/index.php?article_id=16&data_id=344&clang=1 I would be interested in any comments. Rgds Rich...

Rich5ltr

Jul 10, 2015 11:42 am

Subject: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Firstly hello everyone, I have recently joined this forum as I am looking to enter the world of Lagonda ownership. I have an 1958 Aston Martin DB2/4 which, as you all know, uses a WOBentley/Lagonda engine and I have always wanted to own a pre-war car since driving the AMOC's 1934 Ulster (centre accelerator / mirrored gearbox layout).

Like everyone new to a particular marque it's always a difficult knowing where to start but the 16/80 looks attractive to me and the one for sale at German vendor Movendi looks interesting. It's UK registration was/is CPC 748 - chassis number S11334 engine 3082.

I have also discovered from Google that... "In the 60s the open tourer replaced the original saloon body and in 1993 the original engine 1991 cc was replaced by a larger and more powerful 2389 cc engine of the 16/65"

The dealer doesn't say much about the car in his listing but more pictures and details are here http://www.mo-vendi.de/index.php?article_id=16&data_id=344&clang=1

I would be interested in any comments.
Rgds Rich...

Peter S30	Jul 10, 2015 12:49 pm
Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer? Dear Richard, welcome in the Lagonda world. As emailed: looks nice, I don't know details about it, the front flash lights are out of place and bulbs will not like the shaking, valances on the inside of the front wings are missing. Any 16/80 specialist with comments about the body ? Intereresting what you found in google, is that about this car? often a saloon body has been replaced by a tourer body (but non original bodies of course are a minus at least should be in price). The engine in this 16/80 is the correct (Crossley) engine (compare photos here: http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/94902/index.html) it is not the much heavier and differently looking 16/65 one I do not want to try to write the history and development of Lagonda cars here, recommended books to start with: the two latest books by Arnold Davey (see Literature in the main menu upper left corner) Joining the club is also recommended, even before you have a Lagonda, nice people !

Peter S30

Jul 10, 2015 12:49 pm

Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Dear Richard,

welcome in the Lagonda world. As emailed: looks nice, I don't know details about it, the front flash lights are out of place and bulbs will not like the shaking, valances on the inside of the front wings are missing. Any 16/80 specialist with comments about the body ?

Intereresting what you found in google, is that about this car? often a saloon body has been replaced by a tourer body (but non original bodies of course are a minus at least should be in price). The engine in this 16/80 is the correct (Crossley) engine (compare photos here: http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/94902/index.html) it is not the much heavier and differently looking 16/65 one

I do not want to try to write the history and development of Lagonda cars here, recommended books to start with: the two latest books by Arnold Davey (see Literature in the main menu upper left corner)

Joining the club is also recommended, even before you have a Lagonda, nice people !

Colin M34	Jul 10, 2015 1:34 pm
Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer? Hi Richard The car Is very shiny and accordingly has a very shiny price - which possibly reflects the amount of care and preparation that has gone into making it look so smart. I have a 16/80 in my collection and they are very good cars. I also have a 2 Litre and much beer has been drunk discussing the merits of the 4 cylinder car versus the 6 cylinder ones. The usual outcome is that it is time for another round of drinks! As Peter suggests, join the club first, before buying a Lagonda. He mentioned that there are nice people in the Lagonda Club. He is being modest. I thoroughly enjoy his company and you will not regret widening your circle of friends both in the UK and around the world. With any vehicle there are many questions that need to be asked before buying it. The best cars are seldom advertised. If you send me a PM with your email address I can find out whether another 16/80 is still for sale, in somewhat sad circumstances. Colin M34

Colin M34

Jul 10, 2015 1:34 pm

Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Hi Richard

The car Is very shiny and accordingly has a very shiny price - which possibly reflects the amount of care and preparation that has gone into making it look so smart.

I have a 16/80 in my collection and they are very good cars. I also have a 2 Litre and much beer has been drunk discussing the merits of the 4 cylinder car versus the 6 cylinder ones. The usual outcome is that it is time for another round of drinks!

As Peter suggests, join the club first, before buying a Lagonda. He mentioned that there are nice people in the Lagonda Club. He is being modest. I thoroughly enjoy his company and you will not regret widening your circle of friends both in the UK and around the world.

With any vehicle there are many questions that need to be asked before buying it. The best cars are seldom advertised. If you send me a PM with your email address I can find out whether another 16/80 is still for sale, in somewhat sad circumstances.

Colin M34

Rich5ltr	Jul 10, 2015 1:48 pm
Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer? Thanks chaps, the notes about it having a 2.4 litre engine were found on a Google search listing for the car when it was sold a few years ago. Perhaps it's been reunited with its correct engine since then. Books are on order, and in process of joining the club. Rgds

Rich5ltr

Jul 10, 2015 1:48 pm

Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Thanks chaps, the notes about it having a 2.4 litre engine were found on a Google search listing for the car when it was sold a few years ago. Perhaps it's been reunited with its correct engine since then.

Books are on order, and in process of joining the club.

Rgds

Colin M34	Jul 10, 2015 4:49 pm
Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer? Hi Richard Yes this one certainly has a correct 16/80 engine now. One issue to consider is that the Crossley engine uses duraluminium connecting rods which after 80 years of use are susceptible to breaking - with disastrous consequences. This car was originally an ST24A pillarless saloon which doubtless fell to bits. Many did! For 1934, the correct tourer body would have been T7 which has a swept tail and a boot, though replica T2 or T5 bathtub bodies look good on re-bodied saloons of this period. They are also lighter and easier to make. The replica body on this car looks well-made and nicely trimmed but appears to be a panelled interpretation of the T1 fabric body normally fitted on cars up to 1930. It looks very well presented and I guess that strict accuracy it is matter of personal choice for a particular car like this. Colin M34

Colin M34

Jul 10, 2015 4:49 pm

Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Hi Richard

Yes this one certainly has a correct 16/80 engine now. One issue to consider is that the Crossley engine uses duraluminium connecting rods which after 80 years of use are susceptible to breaking - with disastrous consequences.

This car was originally an ST24A pillarless saloon which doubtless fell to bits. Many did! For 1934, the correct tourer body would have been T7 which has a swept tail and a boot, though replica T2 or T5 bathtub bodies look good on re-bodied saloons of this period. They are also lighter and easier to make.

The replica body on this car looks well-made and nicely trimmed but appears to be a panelled interpretation of the T1 fabric body normally fitted on cars up to 1930. It looks very well presented and I guess that strict accuracy it is matter of personal choice for a particular car like this.

Colin M34

SRD	Jul 10, 2015 4:56 pm
Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer? Richard hi, When it comes to pre-war Lagondas these are still great value in comparison imo to the very highly priced AM cars of the same period. There is no monopoly on sales or restoration, a very good thing in my opinion. You could not do better than (a) join the club, it is very good value, (b) always speak to Valerie or Colin Bugler who hold the club databases first.They can give you in 9 out of 10 cases a good history of the car. There are many people to speak to on the pre-war 2 litre or 16/80, but I would suggest Colin Mallet (M34) or Peter (S30) a more recent owner of a 2 litre, who is very hands on. Avoid cars which have been re-bodied or engines swapped. There are plenty of very good cars out there which are right. A current super 2.0 litre is with David Wall in Norfolk, a very respected man in Lagonda circles. Take your time and try a few cars first. Picking hairs slightly the LB6 engine was not exactly designed by Bentley, he was involved. but the man really behind the LB4, LB6 and LB8 designs was Willie Watson. Simon www.Lagonda_Rapide.com www.DB_Lagonda.com

SRD

Jul 10, 2015 4:56 pm

Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Richard hi,

When it comes to pre-war Lagondas these are still great value in comparison imo to the very highly priced AM cars of the same period. There is no monopoly on sales or restoration, a very good thing in my opinion.

You could not do better than (a) join the club, it is very good value, (b) always speak to Valerie or Colin Bugler who hold the club databases first.They can give you in 9 out of 10 cases a good history of the car.

There are many people to speak to on the pre-war 2 litre or 16/80, but I would suggest Colin Mallet (M34) or Peter (S30) a more recent owner of a 2 litre, who is very hands on.

Avoid cars which have been re-bodied or engines swapped. There are plenty of very good cars out there which are right. A current super 2.0 litre is with David Wall in Norfolk, a very respected man in Lagonda circles. Take your time and try a few cars first.

Picking hairs slightly the LB6 engine was not exactly designed by Bentley, he was involved. but the man really behind the LB4, LB6 and LB8 designs was Willie Watson.

Simon

www.Lagonda_Rapide.com

www.DB_Lagonda.com

Rich5ltr	Jul 10, 2015 8:35 pm
Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer? Thanks for your note Simon, all very helpful. Incidentally I don't mind splitting hairs, accuracy in these things matters and that's how I learn. I had heard of Willie Watson but wasn't sure what part he played in the design. :-)

Rich5ltr

Jul 10, 2015 8:35 pm

Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Thanks for your note Simon, all very helpful. Incidentally I don't mind splitting hairs, accuracy in these things matters and that's how I learn. I had heard of Willie Watson but wasn't sure what part he played in the design. :-)

cahallett	Jul 31, 2015 9:17 am
Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer? Hello Rich, I looked at this car back in 2008 when it was for sale in Belgium (LMB Racing). I was told at the time that I would be disappointed with the performance of the 16/80’s engine & did not purchase the car (this advice was wrong as I now own a 16/80 and they are very good touring cars if they have not been messed around with). Anyway it’s a very clean looking well-made car even if it has an incorrect body. However the price is way too high even in today’s market and for a 16/80 with incorrect body you should be paying some 29k Euro less than what is being asked. By the way when this car was listed with LMB they described the body as original (which we all say it is not) but it might be worth checking with them as you never know if the body was from another Lagonda or not. Well, good luck with finding a car and maybe we will see you at this year’s AGM (you will have all models to look at & maybe one or two will be for sale). Best Wishes Chris

cahallett

Jul 31, 2015 9:17 am

Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Hello Rich,
I looked at this car back in 2008 when it was for sale in Belgium (LMB Racing).
I was told at the time that I would be disappointed with the performance of the 16/80’s engine & did not purchase the car (this advice was wrong as I now own a 16/80 and they are very good touring cars if they have not been messed around with).
Anyway it’s a very clean looking well-made car even if it has an incorrect body.
However the price is way too high even in today’s market and for a 16/80 with incorrect body you should be paying some 29k Euro less than what is being asked.
By the way when this car was listed with LMB they described the body as original (which we all say it is not) but it might be worth checking with them as you never know if the body was from another Lagonda or not.
Well, good luck with finding a car and maybe we will see you at this year’s AGM (you will have all models to look at & maybe one or two will be for sale).
Best Wishes
Chris

Rich5ltr	Aug 03, 2015 8:07 am
Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer? Hi Chris, thanks for posting, it's interesting to hear from someone who has seen the car. Regarding the body, in why is it incorrect? Is it that it should be fabric covered and this one is metal panelled? I have bought Arnold Davey's book and am working my way through the variations in body shapes etc. So I am educating myself. Finally on another thread, I notice Richard Hammond's 2 litre car which also has a replacement body, sold at Bonham's for a tad over £100,000 so I am interested in your opinion that his car is worth around €100k euro. It's difficult getting a handle on the values of the respective models. Rgds Rich...

Rich5ltr

Aug 03, 2015 8:07 am

Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Hi Chris, thanks for posting, it's interesting to hear from someone who has seen the car. Regarding the body, in why is it incorrect? Is it that it should be fabric covered and this one is metal panelled? I have bought Arnold Davey's book and am working my way through the variations in body shapes etc. So I am educating myself. Finally on another thread, I notice Richard Hammond's 2 litre car which also has a replacement body, sold at Bonham's for a tad over £100,000 so I am interested in your opinion that his car is worth around €100k euro. It's difficult getting a handle on the values of the respective models.
Rgds Rich...

cahallett	Aug 03, 2015 2:41 pm
Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer? Hello Rich, There are a few things wrong with the body on this 16/80 • front valance is missing • chassis side rails should be concealed under the bodywork • windscreen should be one piece and pivoted at the top so it can be opened up & outwards for fresh air. • rear tank filler spout is incorrectly positioned • the spare wheel mount is the wrong way up • rear seat should have a central armrest • bonnet side hinges should not be riveted • bonnet catches are wrong • steering wheel is wrong • some of the instrumentation is wrong • front wings should not have side lights and are missing the fabric/leather stone guards That said, it’s very very clean & looks very well made (much better than the body on my car). Regarding price, I guess it’s down to what somebody is prepared to pay. A very nice late 1934 tourer with original T7 or T9 body (sloping wings – not cycle wings) sold recently for around the £80k mark which in my mind was good value. The plus side of cycle winged cars are that engine bay access is excellent (no back aches). Anyway, you could try contacting Brian Savill as his 16/80 is probably the best example of a cycle winged 16/80 that exists and he knows exactly what is or is not correct. Good luck and do try and make it to the AGM Chris

cahallett

Aug 03, 2015 2:41 pm

Subject: Re: Anyone know about this 16/80 Tourer?

Hello Rich,

There are a few things wrong with the body on this 16/80
•   front valance is missing
•   chassis side rails should be concealed under the bodywork
•   windscreen should be one piece and pivoted at the top so it can be opened up & outwards for fresh air.
•   rear tank filler spout is incorrectly positioned
•   the spare wheel mount is the wrong way up
•   rear seat should have a central armrest
•   bonnet side hinges should not be riveted
•   bonnet catches are wrong
•   steering wheel is wrong
•   some of the instrumentation is wrong
•   front wings should not have side lights and are missing the fabric/leather stone guards

That said, it’s very very clean & looks very well made (much better than the body on my car).

Regarding price, I guess it’s down to what somebody is prepared to pay.
A very nice late 1934 tourer with original T7 or T9 body (sloping wings – not cycle wings) sold recently for around the £80k mark which in my mind was good value.

The plus side of cycle winged cars are that engine bay access is excellent (no back aches).

Anyway, you could try contacting Brian Savill as his 16/80 is probably the best example of a cycle winged 16/80 that exists and he knows exactly what is or is not correct.

Good luck and do try and make it to the AGM

Chris